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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:06 am 
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jf1acai wrote:
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I personally know that PMing is used as a rallying tool because I have received PMs that were intended to involve me in certain controversies.


Sorry, but I cannot let this rant against PMs pass without comment. I have received emails that were intended to involve me in all sorts of things, therefore we should do away with email? - NOT!

PMs are exactly what the name implies - Personal Messages. They are another tool in the communications toolbox. Like any other tool, they can be used appropriately or inappropriately.

And, there are 10 kinds of people in the world....

those who understand binary, and those who do not :wink:


Since I use PMs. By definition I must be a 0 :lol: Oh wait, there is still a chance I could by using it appropriately and not be a 0 or 1.
:yeahthat:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:09 am 
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Nobody that matters wrote:
jf1acai wrote:
And, there are 10 kinds of people in the world....

those who understand binary, and those who do not :wink:


I really wish I could find out how many people read that and think "yeah, but what about the other 8?"

:biggrin:


rofllol :rofl

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:02 pm 
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jf1acai wrote:
Seriously, I agree with most of the above, when this forum was started folx were more respectful of each other than they are now. Perhaps familiarity really does breed contempt?

I don't see this as being something that management needs to change. I think it is something that the users of the forum need to change. I don't see it as a right vs. left, conservative vs. liberal, etc. issue, rather it is a common decency issue, IMO.
Some familiarity for sure, but I think it's more of a "crowd" sort of mentality. One or a even few people of like-minded temperament will engage in constructive discussion, online or in person. You get many together, they know they have support/others to egg them on or reinforce their opinions, and it gets ugly quickly thanks to it. I don't know that there's any easy, or permanent way to improve upon this, as the goal is to increase member numbers (but too many of our new members aren't active posters). If the respect for one another isn't there now, it's likely not going to get better, but it is possible. Increased moderation is definitely not the answer. What you'll have is a number of posters who come and go as their tolerance reaches critical, posters who reduce their participation to "safer" forums, a core number of posters who are the usual culprits stirring it up and see no reason to change, a number of posters who try to ignore it and continue as usual, and a silent majority who probably only check in when they want to see what the weather or traffic is like, have something to buy or sell, or are, on occasion, bored.
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Perhaps, we should pause to think before we post that 'brilliant' zinger, would I talk to my friends that way? Would I really phrase it that way if I were talking with a friend of my mother? Would I say the same thing if I were talking with him/her in Safeway or King Soopers?

Disagreement is a wonderful thing, and leads to improvement. But, it can be expressed in a respectful manner. We seem to have lost a lot of the respect for others here, and that diminishes both us, and the value of this forum.

I would like to see us all concentrate more on respectful responses to issues, rather than disrespectful responses to personalities. I think we would all gain more that way.
This is ideal. Respectful disagreement fosters open communication, introduction to new ideas, and a feeling of connection with others, even those whose attitudes/principles/etc don't match oneself. We become stronger as a community and, bigger picture, as a nation that way. But to change group-think, the effort has to come from the members themselves, sometimes guided by authority (*wink* 285Bound Staff!). These citations below aren't exactly like our situation, but do provide some info and guidance to mitigate it, if you think it's worth a try...just my 2 cents. There's probably lots of better business or psychology/sociology books out there to address this topic - I can see if EM knows any off the top of his head if you're interested (he's done wonders with his company in designing a leadership development course that includes things like better communication and involvement with and between team members, and just gave me one of his new books to read on understanding resistance to change; but, JMC probably knows as much too!).
http://clomedia.com/index.php?url=artic ... ee/print:1
Quote:
Eliminating Groupthink
Eliminating this detrimental behavior is easiest if you can determine why it’s occurring in the first place. If the intimidator is not the boss but one or two dominant individuals who seem to be running the show, try to understand what is causing the team dynamic. Are the dominant players intimidating the less dominant individuals, or are the passive players uninterested and content to agree? Whatever the case, it’s to your benefit to make sure every team member understands that everyone is equally responsible for the decisions being made. You may need to instruct passive players to step up or ask overbearing individuals to change the nature of their contributions.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... html?cat=7
Mob Mentality
Regina Russell Aug 19, 2010
Quote:
Sunstein (2009) and Vorobyoff (2006) argue for individual responsibility, (i.e. each person is responsible for his or her own actions). One psychologist (Jost, 2009, p. 255) says that we have become a society that blames others instead of taking responsibility for our own decisions. Or does a person succumb to the group's mentality as Sunstein (2009) argues when he says, "crowds and large masses are not self-policing; mob mentality leads to polarizations, extremism, and violence. When people find themselves in groups of like-minded others, they are more likely move to extremes" (Sunstein, 2009, p, 21).

The media and family upbringing affect our outlook and opinions about other races and gender (Winter, 2008). We must challenge those beliefs and escape from prejudice and from the groupthink and mob mentality to form our own values, opinions, beliefs and mindset. In the words of Emerson: "to be an individual and to think for oneself in a world that is constantly trying to make us conform is the struggle of a lifetime" (Emerson, 1875/2009, p.133).

It is a struggle worth fighting if our actions bring freedom and a better social condition.

I understand the frustrations of the member who decided to leave, but from my point of view, it hasn't been that bad (irritating and mildly depressing at time, but, at least, not as bad as I've seen other places. Maybe I just have thicker skin, make my disagreement obviously known and move on emotionally, or take a bigger picture perspective so it's easier to tolerate the "slings and arrows of misfortune", I don't know). Sure there are those who will never change their minds on any topic, and those who only want to state their opinions and can get disrespectful about it, but it's just like people in real life. To openly discuss and try to improve upon this situation though, is the best course of action and I applaud 285Bound for bringing this up. I continue to look forward to more conversations, debates, and disagreements with everyone on here.

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Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken. ~Frank Herbert

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:08 pm 
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I am still waiting to see what is constructive about the criticism. All I see is a crybaby whiner who left in a huff. ROTFL

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:11 pm 
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IMO, the criticism is valid. If/when the content on the forums is phrased in a personally adversarial manner, rather than discussing subject matter, it can/will drive people away, and we lose the value of their input.

I believe that we all gain when people can freely express their opinions, without fear of personal attacks as a result.

We should always be able to disagree with an opinion, but NOT attack the person who posted it.

Edited to add - OK, I will make an exeption in the case of VL! :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:25 pm 
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There are those who look for evidence of personal attack and they will always find it by wry interpretation of what is said. It is a hopeless cause. What some take as snarky is hardly intended to be so. It depends upon their social communication methods and those of others. And there are some who will always try to back others off by saying "why, you are talking about me!". This is a form of argument that is meant to make the other back off.

Extremely often the opponent must be villianized in order to validate one's own position. This takes the form of viewing the opponent as stupid, ignorant, untruthful, lazy, devious, etc. This trait is very strong.

Most often, those who disagree will never find common ground. Their world views are diametrically opposed. Only those who are undecided or apathetic will change their point of view, and the motivation for this change is most often not for love of truth.

Ask why one is repulsed by another and quite often the answer will be "I don't know, but something about him/her just pisses me off."

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:47 am 
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I'm of the same opinion as Neptune Chimney. I've been a member of a lot of forums, I've helped run several, and this is a standard pearl clutch and flounce.

For those who don't know the terms (they can be forum specific) think little old ladies, high society ladies, think movies - every time something shocking is said, they put their hand to their throats or literally grab their necklace - hence the pearl clutching. Anything you say that offends their personal sensibilities immediately marks you as a bad and evil person.

Flouncing - you've all seen girls do this(and some guys) - get all in a huff and stomp away. The internet version is to post an email like this, say "I'll not be coming back to post" or however it is phrased. This person flounced in a grand manner, pearls clutched tightly. A grander flounce would have been to post it publically rather than just email it to the admins.

Here's the deal. Yes, some people are offensive at times. Yes, some people like to make a peanut buter cookie and everything else political. Not every forum is for every one, just as not every part of every forum is for everyone. (Don't believe me? Go scare yourself with places like 4chan.)

If the people do not have the good sense to stay out of the areas that bother them, then IMO, they deserve to be offended - they brought it upon themselves.

Moderating every aspect of our thoughts, speech, behavior just because one person flounces over one thing said or even several things - is unrealistic.

Yes, some of some people's crap gets tiring - which is why we have that friend or foe option - every forum has them. But overall, this forum would not be of interest if people were not themselves.

No one ever said you had to be friends with everyone, or agree with everyone - and if they did, they did you a great disservice. Enjoy the differences even when you don't agree. And if someone pisses you off, be an adult and take a break until you are no longer pissed. It's easy to do.

As for the life issue - OMG - what a common comment from the flouncers - yes, dear, we DO have lives - you can see the last time someone logged in and when. However, our neighborhoods and our communities ARE a large part of our lives - always have been, all the way back to cavemen. THIS is a part of our community and our neighborhoods. It's a failed insult and rather petty at that. If your life is so great that you don't need or use the internet, please to explain then why you are here flouncing?

OK, I'm done pontificating for the day.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:07 am 
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Following one line of reasoning, we should just let all the cops go and let people decide on their own if they want to behave or drive the speed limit.

Personally (and this is probably no surprise to anyone), I believe a little moderation is needed. Otherwise, the trolls take over the place (as they tend to do). As for "Who moderates the moderators?" The answer is either "No one" or "the person who is running this as a business."

I believe there can be a happy medium between no moderation and and full moderation. I think many people post where they know they're not going to get ripped apart by trollish posters. I also believe trolls will be trolls no matter what forum they are on. Trolls don't really have an interest in getting to know other posters or interacting with them offline. As Major Bean so aptly put it, "Extremely often the opponent must be villianized in order to validate one's own position." For a community forum trying to build relationships among its posters, that type of behavior is not beneficial to its future growth.

"If the people do not have the good sense to stay out of the areas that bother them, then IMO, they deserve to be offended - they brought it upon themselves." That is too simplistic, IMO. Many people enjoy debating the issues in an adult manner. It's when the debate evolves into attacks on the individual, instead of the subject being discussed, that it becomes a problem. It takes the debate from the adult level to the schoolyard bully level.

Many forums have a simple rule: Be respectful of other posters. No personal attacks will be tolerated. They seem to work quite well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Let me ask - if you don't like bondage porn, do you go look at it? No. If you were to go look at it and you got offended by it, who would be at fault - you or the guy who put it out there to be looked at?

You.

The problem with the "personal attacks" is that it is subjective, and requires a lot of policing by several people in order to stay fair and reasonable. It takes hours of effort, someone having to read every post in their assigned section, and often requires "meetings" to justify any sudden action on the part of any given admin. I know - I did it for 10 years for one community, several other years for other communities. It's the suckiest volunteer job you can choose, because no matter what you do, someone thinks you are wrong. Some people get offended by things that would not offend the vast majoritity of us, yet if they complain, it still needs human time and effort to like into it, even if that person is a known crackpot. Consider it like a social serices job - even if you know the call is likely overblown or false, you still better get out there and check it out.

Having a spot in any forum that's no holds barred is not unreasonable nor unusual. Most, however, do have an 18 and over disclaimer. In fact, one of my favorite forums has this disclaimer "18 and over only - we are not role models here."

If you don't like people callng each other names, then don't go where they are doing so. Some situations you cannot avoid - deciding which forum or part of a forum you go to is something you can exceedingly easily choose to NOT do.

Some things are simplistic. Some people pearl clutch over anything.

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"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" Isaac Asimov


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Local_Historian wrote:
I know - I did it for 10 years for one community, several other years for other communities. It's the suckiest volunteer job you can choose, because no matter what you do, someone thinks you are wrong. Some people get offended by things that would not offend the vast majoritity of us, yet if they complain, it still needs human time and effort to like into it, even if that person is a known crackpot. Consider it like a social serices job - even if you know the call is likely overblown or false, you still better get out there and check it out.

.


That explains a lot.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4[/youtube]

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